Odysseus doesn't even escape, he is killed when Telegonus (his son by Circe) arrives at Ithaca and he charges out at his son in a rage. The effects of the Trojan War pass down generations (which also supports your argument!).
Vietnam and the Afghanistan / Iraq wars constituted similar experiences for American veterans in that they were fought in countries whose language, culture, religions and economies were alien to them. The enemy was hard to identify. The goals of war were unclear. Tours of duty were stretched. The persistent strain of wars fought often by isolated penny packet forces with no discernible front line has traumatised perhaps 2 generations.
And then they came home to no cheers, curtailed veteran benefits and an economy no longer working for working people.
Was it Robert E Lee who said “It is well that war is terrible, lest we grow too found of it”?
Perhaps he did, but then again the good old boys in the German Waffen SS supposedly said: ‘might as well enjoy the war while it lasts, as it’s going to be an awful peace!’
OK, actually, I think the "authentic Vietnam" experience would be Iranians in Syria.
Later stages of Vietnam were nothing fancy or "hybrid", it had totally turned into a conventional war that needed a conventional solution. Same thing with the great Idlib offensive last year.
The actual "experts" in so-called "hybrid warfare" are hardly examples for American society to emulate. I doubt the average person wants to live like Pakistani peasants or Iranian or Russian.
(actually that's the great American question, everyone want to fight like guerillas against the proclaimed government tyranny but no one want to actually live like one)
Agreed, but the US experience in 1969-71 was not like NE Europe in 1944-45 where they might have found some commonality with the peoples they were fighting for.
It was the fact that the US had to fight for totally alien things and was almost entirely led by a deep state that didn't bother going through the nuances.
By the 60s US was well en route to an Iran like double regime. You have CIA and friends drugging random Americans for pseudoscience, FBI wiretapping everyone who look funny, race tension over the roof, and Pentagon sending men to their deaths for a war nobody understands.
It was the defeat from Vietnam that killed the American deep state.
Not all the Greeks and Trojans begin the Iliad accepting surrender. In book 6 a defeated Aglaus offers gifts to Menelaus in exchange for clemency before being killed. To me, this marks a strong contrast with Diomedes and Glaucus later in book 6 when they establish a bond of ancestral Xenia and agree to trade armor and move on. Achilles' ultimate relenting in book 24 is all the more powerful in contrast.
Odysseus doesn't even escape, he is killed when Telegonus (his son by Circe) arrives at Ithaca and he charges out at his son in a rage. The effects of the Trojan War pass down generations (which also supports your argument!).
Live by the sword, die by the sword. Foreign adventures and their consequences.
Hell, Homer even invented the first slasher film
That's what eternal GWOT had done to American society.
It had done to Russian society with Chechnya
It had done to Iranian society with Syria
It had done to Pakistani society with Afghanistan
The only way out sometimes seemed to be... Losing foreign wars.
Losing Vietnam did more good for American democracy than everything between 1945-1968 combined
Great observation.
Vietnam and the Afghanistan / Iraq wars constituted similar experiences for American veterans in that they were fought in countries whose language, culture, religions and economies were alien to them. The enemy was hard to identify. The goals of war were unclear. Tours of duty were stretched. The persistent strain of wars fought often by isolated penny packet forces with no discernible front line has traumatised perhaps 2 generations.
And then they came home to no cheers, curtailed veteran benefits and an economy no longer working for working people.
Was it Robert E Lee who said “It is well that war is terrible, lest we grow too found of it”?
Perhaps he did, but then again the good old boys in the German Waffen SS supposedly said: ‘might as well enjoy the war while it lasts, as it’s going to be an awful peace!’
OK, actually, I think the "authentic Vietnam" experience would be Iranians in Syria.
Later stages of Vietnam were nothing fancy or "hybrid", it had totally turned into a conventional war that needed a conventional solution. Same thing with the great Idlib offensive last year.
The actual "experts" in so-called "hybrid warfare" are hardly examples for American society to emulate. I doubt the average person wants to live like Pakistani peasants or Iranian or Russian.
(actually that's the great American question, everyone want to fight like guerillas against the proclaimed government tyranny but no one want to actually live like one)
Agreed, but the US experience in 1969-71 was not like NE Europe in 1944-45 where they might have found some commonality with the peoples they were fighting for.
It was the fact that the US had to fight for totally alien things and was almost entirely led by a deep state that didn't bother going through the nuances.
Now that's a super interesting perspective -- can you elaborate more on that last sentence?
By the 60s US was well en route to an Iran like double regime. You have CIA and friends drugging random Americans for pseudoscience, FBI wiretapping everyone who look funny, race tension over the roof, and Pentagon sending men to their deaths for a war nobody understands.
It was the defeat from Vietnam that killed the American deep state.
Not all the Greeks and Trojans begin the Iliad accepting surrender. In book 6 a defeated Aglaus offers gifts to Menelaus in exchange for clemency before being killed. To me, this marks a strong contrast with Diomedes and Glaucus later in book 6 when they establish a bond of ancestral Xenia and agree to trade armor and move on. Achilles' ultimate relenting in book 24 is all the more powerful in contrast.